Folding a Rifle: Lee Enfield .303

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura) 07/16/2020 at 10:08 • Filed to: None

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The !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! on this rifle, as with other rifles such as the M-1 Garand or the M-16, is a lengthy and very interesting read. 10-round capacity, a fast-cycling bolt and excellent accuracy, made the Lee-Enfield a very successful rifle that is still in production and use in some parts of the world today.

Image: The Webs

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:10

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I would love one of these

PartyPooper2012 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:12

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I would think the rounds would get in the way of aiming... no?

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 07/16/2020 at 10:16

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Can confirm...they are hilarious. I might own a jungle carbine version...and have worked with another locally popular modification that necked it down to .17

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:18

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I learnt how to shoot on one of these, my dad had a sportarized version. 10 year old me was not expecting that kick lol. 

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:21

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SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:26

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Ahem...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 07/16/2020 at 10:29

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I was told by someone who ought to know what they’re talking about that the .17 bullet has so little mass that it’s easily deflected and easily stopped.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > PartyPooper2012 07/16/2020 at 10:29

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I think you sort of shove them down into the rifle before you close the bolt.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 07/16/2020 at 10:29

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One of my siblings has a n Ishapore. It’s a hoot.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 07/16/2020 at 10:30

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I bet that thing would thump your shoulder pretty good.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 07/16/2020 at 10:32

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I never saw this letter, but I was aware of Gen. Patton’s enthusiasm for the Garand. It’s quite a thing to shoot. Hell of a report. To have several hundred of them blazing away at once would have made quite the din.

PartyPooper2012 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:33

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ok then. never shot one of these, but would love to.

Buddy of mine unearthed his dad’s old rifle. He wasn’t sure what it was but had some asian writing on it.

Little googling and it turned out to be a ww2 japanese rifle.

Oddly enough, the wood parts were made out of poison sumac . The varnish covered it up and they were fine, but those who decided to re-finish it, found a nasty surprise.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:34

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Which is why it is perfect for head shots on kangaroos...and the odd fox.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 07/16/2020 at 10:37

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I have to watch that film now. It was critically acclaimed at its release.

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:39

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Springfield made an M1 specifically for Patton, but he died before they could present it to him.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:43

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My step dad’s hunting rifle was a WWI 30-06 bolt action. It had the thumb safety like this 303 and sliding open sights for shooting up to 1,000 yards IIRC . That i s a brute of a gun, I do not like shooting it .

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > PartyPooper2012 07/16/2020 at 10:48

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That’s a curious thing. My cousin is a Big Gun Guy and he’ll have nothing to do with German or Japanese WWII military weapons because they might have been used to kill a US or other allied service member. A Jewish acquaintance of mine had a Luger pistol he was very pleased with, despite the fact that it might have been used to extrajudicially blow the brains out of a Jew at Bergen-Belsen or some other place.

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:49

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We watched it at Carl and Ginger’s house on VHS way way back in the day. I don’t remember much about it except the very end, which is presumably what is in that video. Some in Australia believe Morant (and Handcock) were framed .

https://allpoetry.com/Butchered-to-make-a-Dutchman%27s-Holiday

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 07/16/2020 at 10:50

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I do not follow you. The thought of kangaroo extermination or odd fox eradication does not trouble me any, but I’d want to be humane about it and not risk being ineffective with a tiny bullet.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:52

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What is this Team Oppo thing all about? 

DipodomysDeserti > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 07/16/2020 at 10:53

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This makes me feel less bad for teaching my seven year-old baby brother to shoot with a .40 caliber Glock. He grew up in the hood and was the biggest kid on his street, so I wanted to scare the shit out of him.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:58

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Imagine a .303 cartridge necked down to .17. Then picture said cartridge loaded to the sort of levels required to get a .303 pencil to smash up a human being....

Both kangaroos and foxes are comparatively soft headed and soft bodied animals with really valuable bodily attributes. If you use a light bullet but are a hopeless shot then the light bullet won't blow the target apart. And if you are a good shot... you'll look like a samurai.

DipodomysDeserti > PartyPooper2012 07/16/2020 at 11:06

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Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 07/16/2020 at 11:08

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It looks heavy.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 07/16/2020 at 11:09

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That whole 30.06 thing, using big game bullets on soldiers always struck me as brutish.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 07/16/2020 at 11:12

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My memory as well, VHS at Carl and Ginger’s. We all thought it was excellent, as I recall. I’m ready to watch it again.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 07/16/2020 at 11:15

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We’re using our big gaming GPUs to do computational analysis for medical research. It’s distributed computing . They have these huge calculations and instead of using a supercomputer, the divide it up amongst a million or more individual home computers. GPUs do best.

Do you want to give it a shot?

www.foldingathome.org

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 07/16/2020 at 11:17

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So are you saying that there is value in the bodies or pelts of the foxes and kangaroos and a well placed head shot preserves the value? (Checking for understanding; I’m a little slow.)

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 07/16/2020 at 11:17

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Are we talking extreme muzzle velocity?

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:23

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Correct. Fox pelts are worth something and kangaroo meat is worth more.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:24

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Yeah it’s overkill, no doubt. I don’t know how many were made or how widely used it was for an infantry rifle. I couldn’t imagine shooting more than 5 bullets to verify accuracy at a time. Your shoulder is sore and your hearing is gone after the first three shots.

jminer > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:24

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It definitely is until you look at the thought process behind why militaries switched to 5.56 and it was because they were more likely to wound and not kill thereby taking more personnel out of the battle as a wounded soldier is more of an impact to a fighting force than a dead one.

In all reality both are extremely brutal, but the entire concept and reality of war is.

I’m a sucker for old military surplus arms though - all of the old 30 caliber guns are literally painful to shoot as they were light and most had a steel buttplate. Worst I have shot was a Mosin Nagant short rifle that that was brutal and I couldn’t put more than a handful of rounds through it in an afternoon.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:26

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Yes...I have seen what I can only assume to be the shockwave of the bullet kill a rabbit at 80 metres.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 07/16/2020 at 11:31

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I’d be curious to try kangaroo meat sometime. Is it gamy like venison?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 07/16/2020 at 11:32

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Have you ever measured the MV?

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:33

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9.5 pounds

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jminer 07/16/2020 at 11:34

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A guy I knew in the Army had a rifle his gunsmith grandfather had made for him out of an 8 mm Mauser machine gun barrel and a custom bolt action. That one would make your shoulder sore as well.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jminer 07/16/2020 at 11:35

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I’d also read that with the 5.56 round, they can carry more of them and that no single factor outweighed the value of simply getting more rounds downrange when victory was being sought.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 07/16/2020 at 11:36

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Yeah. I would guess that it had much to do with what round was readily available and well understood at the time.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:38

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Oh yeah it did, I would have ended up on my ass if my dad wasn’t behind me. He thought it was the funniest thing ever... sadistic bastard lol. 

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:42

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Only in explosions. You can probably Google some actual results!

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:42

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Less so. Makes a very good Bolognese.

punkgoose17 > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 07/16/2020 at 11:49

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Millions were made. This was 1 of 2 standard issue British rifles in WWI. Only the model 1917 Enfield was produced in greater numbers for the British in WWI.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 07/16/2020 at 11:49

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Interesting thought. I’ll check it out.

jminer > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:53

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Mausers are impressive actions, better than a lot of the factory actions for a long time. That 8mm though was brutal and felt like a magnum rifle round.

jminer > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:54

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Makes sense

PartyPooper2012 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 12:00

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that’s one way to look at it.

Another way to look at it is that you are taking a gun away from those who killed (Americans or Russians)

The japanese gun uses some weird ammo. When I researched it, the company selling it suggested that we look down the barrel. Apparently if it has no rifling, then its a training gun and was used to shoot blanks. It cannot shoot live ammo as the barrel is not strong enough.

I have no idea what he has. But sure is interesting 

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 12:08

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That’s amazing. My poot er is too old to have a fast cpu though. I’m surprised research companies don’t have access to a Cray. 

ClassicDatsunDebate > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 07/16/2020 at 12:17

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My father in law has a 30.06 with a revolving cartridge and 5 capacity mag. He’s probably downed 15 Moose with it over the years. it’s a brute but that was the mind-set back in the 60's. Imagine carrying around a 12Lb hunting rifle in the backwoods.  

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jminer 07/16/2020 at 12:39

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Your reply is consistent with my experience.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > PartyPooper2012 07/16/2020 at 12:46

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I think it’s a reasonable position and for my part, I’ve limited my interest in military weapons to USA-issue.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 07/16/2020 at 12:47

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The research is out of Stanford. What we’re doing with our individual folding is actually far more  than they could accomplish with supercomputers. Bear in mind that the folding is done by the graphics card much more than by the CPU.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jminer 07/16/2020 at 12:49

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If I interpret this correctly, we should break the 300 mark before anybody else passes us, unless we slow down for some reason.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jminer 07/16/2020 at 12:51

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And this; flat for three days. Is this typical of your experience? Both of my machines are producing as they should be.

PartyPooper2012 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 12:52

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yeah. Anyone can have their point of view.

Personally, I don’t have an option on the matter one way or another.

I just want to try and shoot it. 

jminer > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 14:11

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Yeah I think we’ll hit 300 before being passed again.

I normally see 20-40 % swings in my performance day to day. Over the last 2 weeks without varying anything (except taking one day off) my points have been varied between 800k and 1.3 million each day.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jminer 07/16/2020 at 14:17

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You have to give credit to the people at Stanford for this construct that has people like you and me competing to do their work for them. My wife grins about us, a bunch of little boys having a race.

jminer > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 14:43

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Lol - that’s exactly what it is. Competition is one of those things that drives our lizard brains hard.

Early on I was about to pull the trigger on like $2k of graphics cards to put down some serious power but then sanity hit me and I realized I was just being too competitive about it and only spent $500 on a new card...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jminer 07/16/2020 at 15:26

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I spent about $550 on my T7400/1080Ti machine. And Mrs. Vandura encouraged me because she’s down with the cause and she’s just a wonderful Life Companion. And she knows it will make my juices flow... If I’d wanted to buy the thing for gaming, she’d likely have glanced at me askance. Thing is, that machine is now the machine I use for all of my ZOOMing for school. Daily driver, it is...

jminer > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 15:33

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That’s nice to put it to dual use for sure, that plus a supportive partner are awesome things for crazy hobbies like these.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jminer 07/16/2020 at 15:36

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She gets the “donating electrons” aspect of it. It’s really a fun deal.

kanadanmajava1 > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 18:12

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How about Volvo C303 Laplander ?

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 18:59

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I think you’re a bit mistaken. A .30-06 is hardly a big game bullet. And its frankly no more or less powerful than its contemporaries (.303 Brit, 7.62x54r, 7.5x55 Swiss, 8mm Mauser, etc.)

The arguement could be made they were all brutish. But they evolved from the older, larger, slower, big bore cartridges.  They were also conceived in the days preceding maneuver warfare, when it was expected men would sit in trenches and lob rounds 1,000 rounds at each other.  

Snuze: Needs another Swede > jminer 07/16/2020 at 19:02

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The "wounding enemies" is a bit of a myth.  Its more of a "happy" side effect.  The main reasons 5.56, and equivalent cartridges suchs as 5.45x39, were selected boils down to "volume of fire." For any given weight carried the average infantry man can carry more ammo which directly translates into more potential hits, whether they be kills or wounds.  

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/16/2020 at 20:04

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I am more than happy to stand corrected on that. The typical 5.56 bullet in NATO use today is ~65 gr. while the 30.06 bullets weighed 2.5 to 3.5 times that much. Older, larger, slower, as you said. That’s what I was thinking about, that it’s more bullet than you need in order to kill a human. The Garand has a fabulous report , by the way, in my opinion... I also was under the understanding that with the 5.56 round, soldiers could carry more shots instead of, as you said, sitting in trenches and shooting. So I guess I’m 2 out of 3. I’m a fan, but I don’t claim to be an expert.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/16/2020 at 20:08

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I read that during the development of the M-16 rifle, someone conducted a gigantic study where they determined that more than any other factor, getting off more rounds made for more kills, so they went for a smaller, lighter bullet.

Have I told you that I recently bartered for a Ruger Mini-14 from a friend? It’s chambered in 5.56 NATO. In California, I am limited to a 5-round magazine though. So I have four of them. Surprisingly expensive, those little bugge rs are... I was advised by an old schooler who is a marksman who used to perform, that because of likely rifling in the Mini-14's barrel, I should stick with the lighter, 55-gr. bullets. I don’t know what the actual rifling spec is; I’ll have to find that out.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/16/2020 at 21:19

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I think rather than "big game," I should have said, "older, slower, heavier." And I think one of those bullets would've knocked the crap out of a man.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 21:20

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A few choice pieces from collection.

On the left is a No. 1 Mk. III* Short Magazine Lee-Enfield manufactured in Lithgow, Australia. This particular rifle was a trainer from the Duntoon Royal Military Academy in Australia. The green bamd denotes that it was a marksman’s rifle. There were 3 bands, red were non-functional and relegated for drill work, yellow were functional and used for basic arms training, and green rifles were used for marksmanship competitions between cadets.

In the middle is a No. 5 Mk. I Jungle Carbine. This one was manufactured by BSA and may have seen some action in Malaysia. These rifles were the result of soldiers fighting in South East Asia during WWII. Weight reduction was paramount and they cut something like 2 lbs out of the the rifle. The went so far as to drill out the bolt handle knob to cut a couple ounces. But the problem was they shortened and turned down the barrels which led to a horrible barrel harmonic. While the previous Enfield will hold a 2" group at 100 yards, this one has trouble holding 6" at 50 yards. And its all thanks to that barrel whwhip.

The gun on the right is perhaps the most interesting. Its a No 1. Mk III Enfield .410 shotgun. It was originally manufactured by Ishapore in India back when it was a British colony. When India was a colony the Brits wanted to hire Indians for jobs like constables, prison guards, etc., but they didn’t trust them with full power rifles. So they took discarded or damaged barrels and and bored them to .41 caliber, which is the shoulder diameter of a .303 Enfield cartridge. They took the magazines out and plugged the mag well with a wood block. The ammo was a cut down .303 with a single musket ball or wax “slug” full of bird shot and a half powder charge. Indians were issued a handful of rounds and had to load them one at a time due to the lack of magazine.

When India gained independence they needed a modern military rifle, which was fulfilled in the short term by a the 2A/2A1 (an SMLE in 7.62x51mm NATO). But they had a bunch of these impractical single shot smoothbore rifles laying around. Some enterprising person figured out that these were .41 caliber and the rim of a .303 Brit shell was the same as a .410 shotgun shell. Run a .410 chamber reamer into it and there ya go, a bolt action Enfield shotgun.  

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 21:29

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A .3 0-06 at almost any range can be lethal, its a haus of a round. I haven’t run ballistics on it, but spitballing here, it probably has as much energy out around 700 yards as a 5.56 does at the muzzle. But like most military developments, its a function of its time and its evolutions from its predecessors. 

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > jminer 07/16/2020 at 21:31

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That is a myth. The 5.56 was picked becuase the larger rounds such as the 30-06 in the M1 was a carryover from earlier rifles . There was a deep cultural belief in army of how critical markmanship was at longer ranges. The problem is armies rarely engaged at 200+ yards. An attacker would want to get as close as possible before alerting an enemy and a defender would want to make sure if ambushing want to make their first shots count.

During ww2 machine pistols (sten, mp40, thompson) , were effective <75 yards , and bolt action rifles set too much for longer ranges 200+ . Due to the rapid fire the m1 gar and did a better job of bridging that gap. Every country was trying to analyse firefights and came to the same conclusions. Most engagements are less than 150yds. the germans invented mp44 which really was the most useful, luckily in limited numbers. still 8mm but shorted round for less mass and thus recoil .

after the war the soviets were impressed and it influenced the AK. The americans stubborn went the m14, an automatic m1 with box magazine. The problem is testing was done with 6'4" linebackers that could handle the recoil . The problem is then giving it to a 5'10" 170lb recruit, Auto was useless.  

the major advantage to the 5.56 was as Rusty said increased ammo load. Also the smaller higher velocity round is easier to aim,(less drop) and less recoil (1/2 the muzzle energy) . Less recoil means the soldier can better control and get a followup shot quicker. More ammo, means more chances to hit a targer. It isn’t designed to wound, like every rifle its designed to hit a target first. So its wounding a target that might have gotten away.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/16/2020 at 21:46

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Not even trenches

After listening to Blueprint for armegddon i read “ Is war now Impossible? 1899. There was a charpter on how with bolt action rifles getting so accurate and ranges increasing, and velocities increasing, men will be mowed down hundreds of yards before the sides engage. It was another point armies will be mowed down so fast, there won’t be armies to fight aftter each engagement.

Additionally in the early 19 00s all the powers were looking to shrink their rounds even more to 6 and rumored 5mm , for even higher velocity, so units could engage volley firing at over 1000 yards.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Snuze: Needs another Swede 07/18/2020 at 07:55

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You own all of these? Do you warm them up ever?

Very interesting stories on all of them. What makes the first one green-banded and not yellow-banded?

The second one: is 6" and 50 yards your experience with that rifle?

Have you fired any .410 with that third one? I’d be interested in a .410 revolver, but not a shorty. I believe .410 revolvers, at least the Judge and the Governor, are not legal in California.

Sorry for the delay in replying to this.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/18/2020 at 09:27

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No worries, my friend. I know we all got a lot going on. I just replied to an outstanding comment from another Oppo from a week ago.

All 3 of these are from my personal collection, and I do shoot them occasionally. I try to spare the green rifle as its “mint”, as far as old relic rifles go, but it’s also too good not to shoot sometimes. I rarely shoot the carbine, it’s an absolute shoulder breaker. I used to shoot the shotgun occasionally when I did trap and skeet, but I haven’t done that in a few years. 410 is challenging for clay games on its own, and doubly so with rifle sights.

Regarding the green rifle, my understanding is the military academies tested the rifles, all the best ones were green banded and then set aside and only used for marksmanship competitions amongst cadets. The rifles that were safe and functional but not quite as accurate were given yellow bands put into the armory for general usage (training, basic quals, etc.) So its just a particularly accurate example of an SMLE, which I can attest to. If I try real hard I think I can get sub 2" groups at 100 yards. The interesting thing about 303s is they use very aggressive rifling and actually tend to slightly overstabilize the round. What this means is it takes some time for the bullet to “settle down” and they actually maintain excellent accuracy at longer ranges.

The carbine is very inaccurate and 6" at 50 is my experience with it. Its tough to shoot, though. The 303 Brit is about the same power as a .30-06, and this is a 7 lb rifle while most full size rifles (such as the No 1 Mk III next to it) are more like 9 lbs. That 2 pounds makes a huge difference in terms of recoil.

The .410 is a pussycat of a cartridge, less recoil than a .223 rifle. Ive fired one of the Taurus Raging Judgr revolvers that can chamber .410, 45 Long Colt , and 454 Casu ll, with all 3 cartridges. The 410 is easy to shoot, more recoil than a 22 but less than a 9mm. The 45 LC is like shooting something a bit more aggressive, more than a 9mm but maybe slightly less than my 357. And the 454 Casull... whew boy!  More than a 44 Magnum. It is an absolute hoss of a round!